Tech Tips for Efficiency

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Welcome to today's webinar Tech tips for efficiency. Thank you for tuning in and checking it out joining me. Today is Catherine Sanders Reach - she is the director for the center for practice management at the North Carolina Bar Association. Normally, she was director law practice management and technology for the Chicago Bar Association and the director of the American Bar association's legal technology Resource Center.

She was also co-chair of the ABA Tech show 2019 and I have witnessed and attended the text show where Catherine has set up some of that programming with her support and it was very meaningful and relevant to all levels of interest and skills. So appreciate it very much Catherine. 

Thanks so much Jean. I am going to stop sharing my webcam so you can pay attention to the slides. All right, and I will do the same. All right.

So we'll go ahead and get started and I'm just going to go through quickly a bunch of tips that I thought would be useful to you at this time and practically any time and what we're going to do is share the slides with you, which I've annotated so don't get too worried about trying to write all this down or take notes other than what might be useful to you. Not everything is going to be great for you.

But some of the things I hope will be applicable so we'll Ahead and take it away. So the first section we're going to cover is productivity tips. And this one I actually borrowed from a friend of mine Heidi Alexander who was co-chair with me at the ABA Tech show.

And the reality is that it's very easy to send an email to the wrong person because of the way the email applications we use make it easy for us to start typing a name and it fills in the to line or the CCC line for us and what Happens is we I can accidentally pick the wrong person and then we sent the email off and whoops. It's gone to the wrong person or say we forward a thread and we don't adequately review the thread that we're sending or we hit reply all or whatever. And so what Heidi suggested and I think it's a great. I mean, there's tons of different tools that you can use add-ons and things like that that will help kind of eliminate this Behavior, but this one's super easy. No technical.

Is required when you're setting up a new email or replying to an email or forwarding an email, if you could remember to put the word draft in the two line or the CC line, what happens is when you go to hit send it won't go anywhere. It'll pop up and say draft us out an email address you want to edit this and so you realize oh, I need to check who's in the to line. I need to check what I'm forwarding.

I need to check if I'm replying all the replying appropriately and by just typing in draft and having it stopped and make you pause. I think this will eliminate or at least Force us to review what we're sending before we send it out. So I thought that was a great tip from Heidi. This is another email oriented tip, and it's something that I use all the time. There were a lot of products on the market that let you basically eliminate the back and forth that you often find yourself doing with people when you have several people to invite to a meeting and you want to find an appropriate.

Available time for everybody if you send an email with that. It just spawns a whole lot more email. So say I was going to send an email around to three or four people some within my team at the bar association some outside and wanted to find an appropriate time. If I send an email and said do you have these times available? They would respond to whatever way they want to but a lot of times people don't even do that.

They just send out an email and say when do y'all have time and then it just comes a big email nightmare. So there were tools that came out like schedule a meeting and find our doodle they weren't integrated with your outlook. And so if you're in Outlook, he's or in an Office 365 you sir, there's an add-on for Outlook called Find Time. Basically fine time lets you generate a meeting request put in the people that you want to add to it and then you can go and it since it's looking at your outlook.

Calendar first it shows you your availability and anybody else on your team. It also shows their availability and then a guy who's not on your team. It basically doesn't know but you can at least attempt to come up with the time that's mutually agreeable for you and the people that are in your firm and then pick those times and it sends out a little Pole to all the people and they can pick the times so it's very fast. It's very easy. It's a built-in.

Ooh Outlook. You just have to go to Outlook find add-ins if you're using Office 365 click that look up fine time and it will quickly pay you back. Of course. It doesn't cost you any money. It's just a free add-on that lets it make it makes it very easy for you to find availability for multiple parties. This is another Office 365 tip a lot of lawyers. I know we're using Office 365 and it makes great sense.

Cuz it's basically giving you the entire office suite plus a hosted exchange plus one drive for storing documents Pleasure Point and a whole bunch of other things.

And so one of those other things is an app called to do and to do was basically born out of another application called Wunderlist that Microsoft bought and they have been kind of in development with it for a couple of years, but now they're fully committed to it and killing off Wunderlist, but Is an import that you can use if you are a Wunderlist user but one of the things I really like about to do is that if I flag an email for follow-up and Outlook the reality is a lot of times I forget all about it.

Well, if you go over into do and you open it up you can see that there is a section called flagged email and it shows you all of your flagged email but the nice thing is once you click on one of those you can open up and a little kind of area where you can add Reminders you can create due dates. You can look at the email itself. You can get back to it pretty easily but there's a lot of functionality built in that basically take those flagged emails that you meant to do something with but aren't creating intentional workflows with them and turn them into workflows with to do.

Another tool that I really like especially now. I don't have a lot of help with editing and I do have a Blog so I blog all the time but it's hard whether you're writing a blog post or red writing a brief or a memo to be able to edit your own work. And so there are these learning tools in Microsoft Word. Now that make it a lot easier. They do, you know, the general things they'll give you a sense of, you know, better spell check and things like that.

This the learning tools are really neat because it's over in the view and then lender under learning tools in the immersive group. You have a couple of options and so you can kind of use this line Focus option to focus on just a couple of lines and then you can expand the text a little bit. So it's easier to read and slows you down and this helps me a lot to edit my own work because I'm a lot of times when I'm editing.

My own work, I'll speed through it. I'll read things that I already know that I thought were okay. This forces me to go but line-by-line read it. The other thing is the read aloud function. So a lot of times when you hear it read back to you you'll catch things that you didn't notice before. So between the line focus and the read aloud the immersive reader in the learning tools and the immersive group make it a lot easier to edit your own work.

Another thing that you get with office now is the office app. So up until about two months ago. There were there were separate applications for word excel PowerPoint and there still a separate one for Outlook that you'll have to get if you want outlook on your phone, but now there's an office app.

It's one app that replaces word PowerPoint and Excel but it also gives you your one drive so you can get Want to rid of one drive to and so when you open the office app instead of having all these separate apps that actually lets you create a new spreadsheet or a new power point or new word document. It also shows you the recent files. If you use sticky notes on your Windows 10 machine, it will actually show you your sticky notes. It does all sorts of really interesting things. You can convert images text you can use it to scan so you can scan to text you can create.

Eight documents from templates, but it's got a lot of powerful features. They're adding things like signing PDFs scanning QR codes one thing if you don't use OneDrive but use other parts of Office 365, they'll let you hook up to box or Dropbox or Google drive or iCloud or wherever you're storing your documents. So you don't have to be using OneDrive to access all your documents or if you store them in two places. You've got that going for you.

It's free. It comes with Office 365 and it's an incredible little application that does far more than the individual apps by themselves.

So here's a couple of work from home tips. I am currently in the process of writing a blog post about all these different options. But one thing to keep in mind is that while Zoom has been much maligned recently for its security issues while it does have security issues.

There are ways to make your Zoom meetings more secure, but there's also a whole lot of options and so there are options specific to legal and there are options that You already have built into applications. You may be using already. One thing is if you're using a voice over IP system like RingCentral. RingCentral has its own video conferencing platform built in and you may not have the version of RingCentral that you need to be able to take advantage of this. So go into your platform see which version you're using see if you want to add the RingCentral video conferencing, but that'd be an easy way to use a different tool.

The other thing to keep in mind is if you're using Office 365 teams has built-in video conferencing and you can do audio or video teams is best used within your own working group within your own firm because if you send it to you can send it to somebody else, but if you do, You can't what happens is that they'll have to download something and the reason people like Zoom so much is because he don't have to download anything and there are other products like meat if you're G suite user they're making meet available. And that's a video conferencing tool. Then you got these legal specific ones like a an OD are specific app legal. ER is specific to the legal vertical.

And then if you really need something super super secure you can use signal. The only downside was signal is that the video conferencing only works on an app on your phone. So it doesn't work on your computer like the others do but if you're worried about using exam just realize that you have a whole lot of options.

If you are using video conferencing a couple of tips for using video conferencing doesn't really matter what platform you're using just be aware that just because it worked yesterday doesn't mean it works today. So always arrive early and test everything and make sure you're set up before your event starts.

So I usually calendar 15 minutes before an event just to make sure that I go in and everything set up the way I want it to that my video cameras on that my mics on that I have a little you know panel who's showing attendees and all that kind of stuff as for whatever reason sometimes it doesn't work the way it did the day before and that's pretty much true for anything. We've got invited attendees just make sure it's all set up. But the other thing is when you're sending out the invitation to your attendees always put the linked in dial-in information in that calendar event don't send out the event and promised to send the link to the video.

It's later is inevitably you will forget and even if you don't forget, it's just more useful have in the event itself. So when you set up the event in your calendar go ahead and put the link and the dial-in information into the calendar event. That way people don't have to go look for it. I also suggest having some sort of black backup platform. Sometimes things don't work out so you may need to have backup Internet. You may need to have a backup platform at the very least.

If your audio isn't working for some reason have that dial-up most every video conferencing has a dial in option. And so if you had to do it just as a you know, plain old conference call you can all dial in so make sure that information is available and that you have it as well. And then the last thing to remember is everybody is working from home right now and there's going to be the door bells going to ring kids are going to get into the video pets are going to you know, cross the path or dogs are going to bark and things like that before.

I think that we're not working normal times here. And so while this had been kind of a joke and may not have has it wasn't as funny. It's not funny now, but the reality is you need to be kind to people and think about their realities. Their kids may be at home all of that.

So be forgiving One thing I like to suggest is that we separate team communication from client communication. So if you are wondering what that means if you're using teams or Google Suite there's G the G suite chat. There's meet you might be using slack keeping the communication amongst your team and some of these kind of more internally focused on communication tools and then creating kind of a bright.

I'm between using those for internal communication and then with your client communication using your regular phone email text video conferencing with the clients.

It'll kind of keep the internal Communications separate and you won't have to so much too kind of weed through because if everybody starts emailing about everything then it can get you're going to I've already heard from lots of lawyers their inboxes are exploding and as enough to keep up with client communication.

So I just suggest kind of creating two different ways to communicate and since we already have a lot of built-in kind of internal communication tools use those and then you don't have to worry about sorting through And box at the end of every day.

So some marketing tools to talk about - one thing and this is just something that I saw and it's actually this Law Firm uses my case, which is a practice management application. But with that practice management application with many others that are on the market they give you a client portal and if you've never used the client portal now may be the time to go and check that out because it has a lot of useful features especially things like you can put the clients invoices and the portal let them access it if you're using something like law pay to let them pay via.

At card they can click on that to pay with credit card. But what I really liked about what this firm did was a lot of times you'll go to a law firm website and you'll see a link to the client portal and you'll click on it and it'll say login with this firm chose to do is use it as a marketing opportunity. And so they describe what the client portal is just a little bitty thing, but I think it really adds up. So when you go to their website and you click on client portal it tells you what the client portal is what the key.

Hers and benefits are to the client. So it becomes a marketing tool in addition to a useful space for clients and then you can they can go on and log in if they're already a client. If not, they've read about what the portal does and how it can be useful to them.

Another tool that I really like is the ability to provide visuals and timelines whether that timeline is how a typical case is going to go how long it's you know, if you're doing a home, you know a closing on a home sale. What does that look like?

What is the timeline who are the parties but people like visuals and lawyers read and lawyers like words and you can read tons and tons of text on a page, but the average person is more visual in nature and they like pictures.

So anytime you can think about how can I take these words and turn it into bullets or turn it into pictures or turn it into a timeline or something like that infographics things that make it more digestible and easy to absorb the information but also provided that information is essential and so, you know sending them a fee agreement if your fee agreement is 15 pages long likelihood is they're not going to read it. All some of it may be really important. So how can you intersperse graphics and other information to help them get through it?

One thing to keep in mind as we go through and more and more lawyers are asking people to give them reviews and leveraging review sites like Avvo and Google my business and things like that. Is that while you may solicit reviews and have people put reviews on there. There's always going to be that outlier who's, you know going to go and give you a negative review. There's not a lot you can do about that except to make sure that you have far more positive reviews.

The negative reviews but occasionally, you're just going to have somebody who says something negative about you. It's how you respond to it. That's important.

So there's a number of states that have come out with a how to respond to negative reviews ethics opinion North Carolina is actually has proposed one that's out for public comment right now, but the problem is of course that if you respond with any kind of detail, like what's up on the screen you can actually get in trouble for confidentiality. And so this this actually was a real response by an attorney in Illinois to a negative review and she was disciplined by the attorney registration just plenary commission for breach of confidentiality because of her response.

So when you if you get a negative review Don't Panic don't get upset respond, but respond proportionally and somewhat vaguely but you know by saying we're so sorry to hear about your experience, if you can let us know, you know, here's our email address what we can do to straighten this out something like that and always tell the lawyers when you go onto a restaurants website and the manager is responding to a lot of the reviews both positive and negative when you see a manager respond defensively.

Lie to a negative review it never comes off. Well, so just be kind proportional respect restrained and certainly don't breach any confidentiality.

Sort of Switching gears here. There's a little product on the market called tiny letter and it was bought by MailChimp, which is a email marketing tool. It's free for up to 5000 subscribers. It's not fancy. It's super simple and basically What it lets you do is send out a blast email. So if you needed to send an email to all of your clients and you didn't want to sit there and cut and paste.

Just 25 at a time for BCC. You can use tiny letter import your entire list and then it basically is exactly like setting up an email again not fancy subject message. You can put on hyperlinks you can bold and italicize and all that stuff. This is you know, you can create those you can create templates from them, but it doesn't give you all the analytics and other things as a regular email marketing tool, but it does let you send an email to a whole lot of recipients without too much pain and trouble and up to five thousand dollars or five thousand subscribers is free.

This is more of a reminder that there's some very simple things you can do to provide good customer service. And so there was a study that was done and they ask clients, which of the three following adjectives client used to describe characteristics of an outstanding lawyer intelligent capable zealous responsive eloquent, bombastic, successful had a whole list of different adjectives and the ones that clients picked the most in terms of how you would describe an outstanding lawyer responsive accessible and prompt and this was a unscientific study for the client comment section of the best lawyers in America and what this tells us is, you know, you can have gone to a great law school you can you know have been on all sorts of different boards and panels and you know, you can have amazing accolades.

But people really looking for lawyers who are responsive and prompt and accessible basically be there and be responsive and that's going to make you seem like a really great lawyer which is kind of nice to know that it doesn't really matter where you went to school or anything else if the clients feel like they're being communicated with effectively and promptly that's going to go a long way to showing that you're an outstanding lawyer.

So couple of things to think about for spring cleaning if you have a little extra time, this is a good way to spend it. And the first one is it's not so much spring cleaning but it's a way to reduce the amount of bandwidth that you use when you're using your internet browser. And so if you're a chrome user which I am because Chrome is already a pretty good browser.

There's a extension called one Tab and what this does is say I've been doing Research and I look and I've got I don't know 25 browser tabs open every single one of those browser tabs is sucking up my bandwidth sucking up the memory. It's slowing things down. If I click on one tab it basically creates a little list of bookmarks of all the tabs that I have open, then I can close them all and then if I want to go back to that tab group, I just open one tab back up. I can actually share those.


Links with other people from One tab. There's a whole lot of other options and there but the nice thing is just for being able to shut down a bunch of browser tabs that are causing things to slow down and reducing the Clutter one tabs a great little Chrome extension.

Another thing and I'm actually working on an attorney right now with this is looking at some of your gold standard documents your retainers pleadings motions things like that agreements contracts and instead of going back to your old documents and kind of copying and pasting finding replacing things like that.

You can turn them into templates and there's a whole bunch of different products to the market to do this the Testing thing with what the general kind of concept of. This is document assembly the document assembly products on the market. These days are a lot less expensive and a lot more user-friendly than they were in the past and it really just depends on kind of what you want to be able to do with it. So if you just want to take a Word document and turn it into a form that you fill out and then it fills in the document for you. You could use something like the form tool which is just a word.

And if you wanted to make something where you could send it out to basically kind of send out a questionnaire to a client and they fill in the information. There's things like Community dot lawyer that will let you turn a document into kind of a questionnaire and then fill that document in with the information and then you could send it to the client. So figuring out kind of what your use case is finding those documents and taking some time to learn a products that turns it into.

To a form if you didn't want to get a third party for him, if you have Microsoft Word or wordperfect, both of them have template our Form Tools built within them. They're a little bit harder to find in your materials. You'll have a link to some of the options there, but you can turn your document to a form natively with Microsoft Word and with wordperfect.

So it's really no excuse to get started being more efficient with How you're generating documents?

Another thing that I thought was kind of fun was I realized that I have tons and tons and tons of documents into my downloads folder because every time you go online and you click on a document it puts it in your downloads folder.

You may save it somewhere else later, which means that you just got copies of a lot of the stuff where you look at it you do what the what you need it and then you abandon it so go in your downloads folder and you can probably delete Percent of the stuff that's in there and save some space on your computer.

Some other time Savers there's an add-on for Microsoft Word and Outlook. It called were Drake and it's a plug-in. It's a hundred ninety nine a year if you get for both word and Outlook, but frankly, you'll probably just want to use it in a word which is a hundred and twenty-nine a year, but the word rake is basically based on legal writing expert Gary Kinder's best practices for removing extraneous language from your document.

If you want to make your writing cleaner and more succinct and easier to understand what this tool does, it's basically like giving it to a really great editor and giving you a red line copy back. So if you select all the text, you want it to look at click on rake it goes through it makes suggestions for improvement you accept or reject the changes and you basically have paid for an editor.

So if you think about you think a hundred ninety nine or a hundred and twenty-nine a year this expensive. Think about what you would have to pay somebody to do a good job of editing your content and then you can see how it can pay for itself.

Another thing in terms of just kind of productivity is especially if you have an assistant who isn't able to answer the phones for you right now because of how your office is set up or even just to make things easy on people give people the ability to calendar their own meetings. Now, I do not I have one of these I don't actually put mine on line.

What I do is if somebody contacts met through my Consulting form on my website first. Do I value eight whether I want to do a consultation with them and then the next thing I do is say here find a time that works with your schedule and they can pick time. This is actually hooked into my Outlook calendar. So it knows my availability and then they can pick a time. It puts it on my eye on the calendar. It puts it on whatever calendar product they use. I have all the information about how they actually engage with me in the meeting and it makes life.

So much easier because I don't have to negotiate availability via email. I just say here you go pick a time that works for you and never had a problem with it. No one has ever rejected this notion.

But like I said, you don't one of the things that most of these products like and bookings and xai, you know, you don't have to put this link on your website you can but you don't have to the other thing is especially now because one thing you don't probably realize is when you attach and an attachment to an outbound email, it's actually using your internet bandwidth to send that attachment and while most of us have pretty good download speeds or upload speeds or significantly reduced and so sending a large attachments or multiple attachments will actually slow down because it's trying Punch through that upload.

So what you can do is if you're using G Suite or Office 365, you've got a document you want to send somebody there's a link to share or an option to share the document with someone you just click on and then you get a bunch of options about who you're sharing it with whether you allow editing whether you add a password and all sorts of other things and then it sends it out as a link to the document instead of Actually attaching the document so it's just a lot more simple and elegant to do that rather than attach the link. The other interesting thing is with at least the Microsoft product is when someone clicks on the document I get an email that says they clicked on it.

So it's kind of like a read receipt but much more effective than sending an actual read receipt through Outlook, which someone can ignore So from a security standpoint things to keep in mind there are these things called Deep Fakes. You're probably have heard about them.

But there was a recent case where there was a family law Barrister in the UK who has the opposing party tried to submit a fake recording of his client reportedly threatening another party and it took a while to sort out the client kept saying I never said that that wasn't me. But basically it was a deep fake of an audio recording. And so unfortunately, you cannot believe everything you see and hear these days and you know, we're going to see this becoming more and more prevalent. So keep an eye out for it.The other security tip that I cannot impress upon you enough is to use two Factor authentication on everything that you possibly can and two-factor authentication. You've probably heard about this.

Before the basically what it is an addition to my username and password if I want to log into an application. I have to I will get a code to my phone and I have to put that code in now. I can remember my phone and remember my laptop.

I don't have to put the code in except for one time unless I clear all the cache and cookies and then I'll have to do it again, but I can trust devices but what this does is if somebody knew my username and password for say my Gmail account and they went to go to try to log in with my credentials because there were logging in from a different device than the ones I trusted it would ask them for an additional code that code comes to my cell phone. So there's less of a chance of somebody getting in there without you being aware passwords are floating around on the dark web passwords are getting exploded all the time. So this is just another way to protect the different applications that you're logging into and services that you log into. If you're using something that does not offer to factor or multi-factor authentication. There are third-party tools like authy. It's a-u-t-h-y and that'll give you the ability to add that secondary factor for authentication and keep your stuff safe.

SANS it's is a great security think tag, and they've just recently put out the some awareness training and it's a work from home deployment toolkit and it not only is responsive to large and small law firms and things to keep in mind.

But also if you've got kids doing eLearning just all the different ways that you could get exploited and things to keep in mind and it's just this kind of Under work from home toolkit for different business sizes and even for the kids.

one of the realities is if you're working from home, we have a whole lot of devices that are listening in and you don't even really realize it and so if you have a smart speaker like an Alexa or an Xbox or a nest or ring or any of these devices any of these Internet of Things devices that are hooked up to the Internet, they actually have microphones and are listening so our laptops and your phones and so one of the things is there some researchers that University of Chicago came out with this bracelet of Silence. It's very cyberpunk looking and it basically throws off a high-pitched kind of mosquito two ways to jam the listening devices for all of these products.

Of course, you know, you can just turn these off and so in your materials, there's going to be a blog post that I wrote about all the different things that are listening and how to turn those off because the reality is, you know, while the bracelet of Silence was ugly. The portable kind of Silence was even worse. So couple last thoughts staying sane in this time. A lot of you are staring at your screens more than ever before and our computer screens are throwing off blue light and they actually have an imperceptible flicker.

Good flat screens now still have an imperceptible flicker. You can actually make it easier to look at your screen for a lengthy period of time with getting this app called Iris and what iris says on the left hand side, you can see that it's kind of a bright white screen. There's a lot of blue light coming off of that. What iris does is it basically reduces a lot of the blue light and a lot of the flicker side by side? It's a pretty Market contrast when you're using it. You don't even notice all you notice.

Is that your eye strain is significantly reduced there's a free trial so you can see how it works with for you and then it's $15 a one time fee for the software and I use it. It definitely makes it easier to stare at the computer all day long.

If you need some motivation to help you get your workout in then there's a product called Crocker. It's actually developed for businesses. You could get your entire team a license right now. It's free until the end of the month. They have workouts healthy recipes guided meditation all sorts of other things.

There's also yoga by Adrian which is free and if you want to start doing yoga, Adrian apparently is really great to turn on the TV via YouTube and watch these yoga videos. And so if the weather is inclement or whatever you can't get outside, you could still have some lead yoga.

One thing we did at work. We use slack for communication and my boss started off. My boss is a senior manager. And so people pay attention to you know, the lead by example thing. So we had created a long time ago a channel in our slack called fun no one ever use it until we all sort of working from home.

And one of the things is he kind of kicked it off by posting a picture of what he was eating and then the next day at asking for you know pictures of your of everybody's pets and what that did was get everybody to start kind of creating that water cooler feeling where you know, you talk about what did you have for dinner last night or what are you doing today? Or what's going on this weekend? So by having someone in a senior position give and quote permission for people to create that water cooler experience virtually.

It keeps the team with a sense of community that you would have if you were the But now you're all working remotely especially for people who are new to working remote. It can be a very isolating experience.

I use a tool called Boomerang and what Boomerang does is two things and it works with Outlook and it works with Gmail and alligator does a little bit of this and she emailed us a little bit of this but I think I found that Boomerang is a better product for doing all of this and it does a whole bunch of different things, but the two things I really think it excels at or one if I get a message in my inbox and I need to have that message basically come back to me because I don't have time to

Deal with it right now. I can click on the message and say okay in a couple of hours or in a couple of days or two specific time have this message show back up in my inbox because like I said, I can flag thanks for following. I can do all sorts of things. But I'm much more pavlovian about new messages. So having something pop back into my inbox gets me to pay attention. The other thing that it does is when you're sending an email you can say if nobody replies to this.

Email and x amount of time Boomerang this back into my inbox which is super useful because a lot of times you'll send an email to someone and then a week later realized you never got a response and you actually needed a response. So then you have to follow back up with them. So this is just a way to get reminders to flow through your email so that you're kind of creating the ability to be move those conversations forward faster.

And then finally if you were looking for resources to help with the different financial and operational issues that have kind of become at the Forefront because of covid-19 and work from home and all, you know, all this disruption to business. We've put together a ton of resources that are freely available to you. They're all my blog and I'm adding more every day. So it's

And thank you for coming and thank you for paying attention. If you need to chase me down. There are number of ways to do it email Twitter LinkedIn and of course through my blog.

Thank you Catherine for the I mean that was just a wealth of information very meaningful, very relevant and very relatable. I'm sure that a lot of people will be at taking advantage of those tips so very much appreciate you sharing your time sharing your experiences your knowledge with us. We will be posting this webinar to our resources page and we're also going to be sending out and creating a resources page or attorneys during this time. I'll give you that URL.

We'll also send it out to you. It's, we'll be sending that out to you, but we are going to aggregate a lot of different resources and postings and whitepapers like Catherine's information today so that it's readily accessible and relevant to the time that you need it. So, thank you for joining us today.

And again Catherine. Thank you so much. You're somebody I follow on all social media sources and very valuable content for me. So thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thanks, and thanks for having me you bet. Have a great day everyone.